First of all I would like you to tell us something about the system of braille education in special schools and in mainstream schools. How do you see it as a braille expert?
We have one school for blind students in Budapest and two other schools, one in Budapest and one in Debrecen which mostly teach low vision kids.
In all these three schools braille is taught to those who need it and it's very important to know, and I suppose it's quite the same in the neighbouring countries, that student population, let me use this ugly expression, of the special schools has really changed in recent years because in the special schools we have in general less and less students and increasing number of students with visual impairments and multiple disabilities.
So it means braille is taught in the special schools but always to less students and those who are, let me say it very simply, only visually impaired students mostly go to mainstream education and this is a very challenging issue because the itinerant teacher services don't have enough capacity to spend lots of time with the students in mainstream education and in Hungary a very small number of schools have their own special needs teachers. So the problem in many cases is that practically there's a lack of professionals. As we don't have enough itinerant teachers they have to decide what they teach in those very limited number of lessons that they can spend with each student and so very often the focus is put more on computing and less on braille, because using the computer the students can directly communicate with their teachers who can instantly read on the screen what the blind student writes. So, unfortunately, I would say less students are indeed active braille users.
Now in Poland less and less people use braille, because more children go to mainstream schools and there braille is not really used. I think I talked to some teachers and they told me they don't have time to learn braille. So if they don't know braille, they can't teach children.
In special schools it's much better because children start learning braille in the first year of school and if they go to mainstream schools they learn everything by memory and in my opinion it's not really good because they don't know how to write.
How many organizations are investing time and effort to bring new educators, braille teachers who would be teaching these children?
Actually in Hungary only at the ELTE Bárczi Gusztáv Faculty of Special Needs Education has a specialization in blindness and visual impairment. So we are the only institution of higher education where qualified teachers of students with visual impairment are taught.
However, the Hungarian Federation for the Blind and all its member associations all around the country, if there's a request that a person would like to learn braille, try to provide a fellow blind person or a special needs teacher to teach braille.
But unfortunately there are not as many people requesting to learn braille as we would be happy to see.
Many people prefer iPhones, computers, synthesizers instead of reading. So it's not really good - there are less and less people reading braille. Well there are not many students who learn about braille, about the blinds in general, so the schools look for such students. And a special teacher, for example, in a mainstream school is for everything, for autistic children, for deaf children, for blind children. And well, I think it's hard to find a person who knows everything, who can, I don't know ... Who teaches braille, who knows everything about blind and deaf and all the kind of special needs. So I think that's wrong in Poland.
Our institution has braille teachers and they learn braille everyone who wants to. And also we teach new instructors, we try to promote braille. We say it's important, but as I said, the need of braille is not as big, so that's the problem. But yeah, we teach braille if necessary.
What would be the state support you could think about, promoting braille or binding teachers or schools to use braille? Are there some legislation tools for this or not really?
No. In general, they should go to school and that's all. braille is not obligatory. In mainstream school, there are about 20-30 children in one class and if there's one teacher, for example, he or she does not have time to care about all the students' needs. And I think that's the problem.
Legislation is less of a problem. I would say a very severe problem is that very few blind people have braille displays in Hungary. You know, these days people mostly read electronic books or audio books or simply download scanned books from the internet or buy e-books. And these they could absolutely read well on a braille display. However, these devices are very costly. So very few Hungarian people can afford to buy them.
There's a possibility to get some funding from the state. Actually, not even little, because 50% of the device can be funded by the state. But still the remaining cost is quite high for most people.
And another thing is that we have very few experts who blind people could turn to, if they wanted to learn to use a braille display. So, also the lack of knowledged people is, I would say, a difficulty.
Blind people use braille displays but only if they love braille, if they're passionate for braille. If they're reading braille all the time, yes, they use the braille display.
The second thing is that they're quite expensive. So you can get some financial support from Office for disabled people, but you can get the support once per six years. So for example, you buy something and then you have to wait six years for another kind of support.
Would you see the possibility of bringing more braille displays to schools - would it be, in your opinion, the way or path to increase the braille education?
I would say, that would be one part of the solution. I'm pretty sure it is not the absolute solution. But I'm really sure that to have those professionals who are able to teach blind kids and blind adults how to use a braille display and who can also explain in what way a braille display can be used efficiently, because that's also very important, that would definitely help.
Of course, it's also a problem that braille printers are very expensive. So we have quite a few associations who own braille printers. Lots of people prefer to read from a paper in a traditional way, me too, actually. So yeah, to have a higher number of devices, I think would definitely help.
What would you suggest to a teacher in a mainstream school to work with braille? Which devices to start with and how to proceed? What would you say would be the best solution in Poland?
Yeah, I would start with the typewriter and all of that, because the first years of the primary school are not so hard. There's not so much writing - there is some, but not so much.
I would let the children have fun with braille, because sighted people have books with some pictures and other attractions, and the blind child with a braille book doesn't have any like this.
And then I would, ... I don't know, braille display, ... after a year or two, because it's so expensive thing, expensive devices, and children have to be careful when they use it.
What would you see as a reasonable age to introduce a child to braille display or whatever braille technique or technology?
Wow, this is a very good question and not an easy question. I would definitely teach braille and how to use a brailler first. It's very important to see braille written down on a paper, on a sheet of paper, so that a child can imagine that a text can be formatted, that the title is in the center of the page, that paragraphs exist...
I think it's very important to touch braille texts as a whole, not just to touch one line on a braille display. This is one very important thing. And I think it's too much to learn to use a computer, to learn to use a braille display, and to learn to use braille at the same time, or to read braille at the same time. So I'm pretty sure that first, the child must be a good reader and writer of braille, and braille displays can be introduced only when this is achieved.
It's really hard to say ages, also because we might have different systems of education. But if I have to say an approximate age, I would say age 9, 10, not sooner than that.
How is it in Hungary with the materials for, let's say, pre-braille or let's call it early braille, first, second year of education of braillists?
Well, we should have much more materials for sure. For example, in the United States, there's the Seedlings Braille Books for Children, which are absolutely normal print books of tales for small children. And simply the text is added on transparent materials stuck on the page. So the sighted parent can read the letters, but also the braille can be touched on the sheet. So it's very important because children, even at the age when they are unable to read, already meet braille text.
You see, sighted children, wherever they go, see letters, see words, see text around them. Even at the age when they are unable to read, they encounter letters. And I think it would be very important for blind children to have a similar experience, to have braille in their homes, even when they are unable to read it. And, yeah, we should have more materials for pre-braillers.
And I just want to mention one more thing, which is, I think, very important, and we often forget about it. When we read a braille sheet, we learn orientation on the sheet. And I do believe that this experience of finding our way on a sheet of paper helps a lot in orientation and mobility. This is a field which lots of blind kids have difficulties with. I have seen, I think it was done by the German Federation of the Blind, braille tactile labyrinths, which are lots of fun for blind kids. But we have these creative materials in very low numbers. We have very limited access to tactile graphics here in Hungary. So yeah, there's a lot to develop, I must say.
What is the situation in Poland with tactile and braille materials for children in mainstream schools?
The problem is that the textbooks are a little bit different. You don't know, for example, one year there's this textbook, and then the new teacher comes and there's that textbook. So it couldn't be printed earlier because it could be changed, for example, or the school program can be changed. But if necessary, you can have textbooks from special schools, I think. If the special school was asked for help, I think no one would refuse to lend a textbook.
And the tactile pictures, we can print them here in our association, but no one wants them for some years. I don't know... I've been working here for three years and I haven't heard that someone wanted some pictures. So I don't know, there's no need to print them. Or maybe the students have another way, or they work with, I don't know, volunteers. But if you don't touch the picture, you cannot watch it. So I don't know.
I think that students prefer an electronic version or they record their materials and learn. So we also have, actually, a lack of this.
I think there should be a system which should work, that someone needs it and it's done. It's given to the student who needs it. I think it should work fluently and not like this. People prefer in Poland now using computer, iPhone, e-books, audio books are so modern, that braille is being forgotten, unfortunately. Mainstream schools and parents can be in quite a huge difficulty when looking for some materials.
Do you have some specific place for transcribing or for developing a material on demand for these people?
Well, the Hungarian Federation for the Blind can make accessible school books and print them in braille. So that's very important. And also the member associations or some of them have a possibility to print learning materials if requested.
And another new idea and a very important new resource is, I think, 3D printing. So the Hungarian Federation is trying to develop sets of materials, for example, to facilitate teaching biology by, I don't know, making little copies of the different bones of the human body or making tactile copies of different insects. And the idea is that the schools could, in the long run, either rent these sets or buy these sets of 3D printed tactile materials.
So there are very useful and valuable initiatives, but we still need time and resources and all these sets of materials should be available in the whole country. So something has started, but we do need time to be able to provide all the materials for all the kids who might need them in mainstream schools.
Do you have some information about mainstream schools, if they are receiving the help they ask for? Or the problem is, as you somehow suggested, that it's more a problem of them not asking for help?
Actually, in recent two, three years, there's a very big problem in this system. In the past, when a blind student started attending a mainstream school, the resource center, which is, in the case of blind kids, the school for the blind, the special school for blind students. So they got notified, they got an official notification, actually, that in this school, in this village or city or town, there's a blind student, age, year, blah, blah.
However, we don't exactly know who decided that: due to privacy reasons, the resource center cannot be notified anymore. And the result is that it absolutely is the responsibility of the mainstream school to get in touch with the resource center and to ask for support. If the school does it, then the itinerant teacher can get in touch with the student and get in touch with the student's teachers. If the school, for any reason, decides not to get in touch with the resource center or doesn't even know that there's this opportunity, then the student may be left without any special help.
So this is a very weird situation because we cannot even make sure that all the blind kids or students with visual impairments get special support from any of the resource centers.
What is the situation of braille usage in Hungary in general, if you can generalize it at all?
This is a tough question and I would be super happy to say that blind people order books from the Braille Library of the Federation for the Blind, but I must be very honest, I don't do that either because I'm lazy to go to the post office, collect the books, and take them back to the post office or to the library after I read them.
I would say that the average braille user does use braille, but for example, for things like labeling, I don't know, containers of spices in the kitchen, or labeling folders with printed documents that otherwise I don't know what are on those pages. And the average braille user might use braille sometimes for work, but most people use screen readers and as I already mentioned, very few people use braille displays.
We only have braille on pharmaceutical products, for example, in the public transportation we have stop written in braille on the STOP button. We have more and more elevators with braille and large print numbers. We have some tactile maps with braille, but that's a tricky thing because very often, if you walk around as a blind person in the city, you wouldn't even search for the tactile map because you don't know that there's something to search for. But unfortunately, very few products have braille on their packaging.
Now we would consider braille in general for people in Poland. What would you say its presence in environment? Where do you can normally as a blind person in Poland, where do you can find braille? How it can be helpful for you? What the country offers in braille?
This year we have a braille boom because of European accessibility acts and all of that. Now people don't know much, but they think that everything should be in braille.
I think the most needed thing is braille on the room door, for example, in an office, so you know what's in the room. I can find the place in the train when it's in braille or on the station when I don't know, I'm on the train station or a subway station and I don't know where to go. So braille helps me then because it's written in braille where I can go. For example, games like Monopoly or something like that... In general, you can find the games which are not signed, only sighted people can play. So some people buy some foil and they write some letters on it. Or food... Because on medicine boxes we have braille, so it's not necessary.
Some people sign their washing machines in braille or coffee machines or on other devices which are hard to use. So they put the braille near the buttons. So that's how I can use them and it's really useful and helpful.
Many people say, OK, but not everyone reads braille, so it's not necessary and we have to fight for this. We get so many questions in our institution, we are asked about braille and people think, for example, that braille should be seen from afar - it should be so big that everyone can see it from afar. People don't know much about braille.